Muhammad and Ayesha

[Fatal Guillotine]

number of folk have made comments that Muhammad (pbuh) was supposedly a pedophile for marrying Ayesha whom Bukhari says was 9 years of age. I would like to post some links to sites which may help redress this besmirching of Muhammad's honour.

http://www.guidedones.com/metapage/frq/Aisha.htm

and

http://www.answeringinfidels.com/content/view/74/84/

Please do read the information on these sites, it is both timely and useful.

[3rd3y3]

If hadith is gonna be used to clear up the controversy, it is insufficient. Hadith is said to be written well over 250 - 300 years AFTER the Prophet's passing. Hadith is nothing more than heresay which has no proof to back it up. Hadith is not a reliable source of information on Islaam or the Prophet.

The Quran, the sole source of Islaam as we have it, which was written during the life of the Prophet, has no such slander about a child bride and marriage. The Prophet was known by the title The Trustworthy by even his enemies because of his responsible and nature of being trusted.

Btw, a thread addressing this subject has already been written a few weeks ago.

[Edgar Erebus]

Hadith or not, the consent age changed during history. It was only raised to 18 in the beginning of the last century, when suffrage groups pressured authorities into doing so. As far as I know, in the Middle Ages it was usual everywhere to marry and have sex with 9-year olds.

Every time and place has it's own morals. People seem to forget that.

[Dokuro]

i thought we already cleared this one

[Fatal Guillotine]

then how would you defend it since all valid points which seems to refute the allegations seem to come from the hadith

[Hellspawn]

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

If hadith is gonna be used to clear up the controversy, it is insufficient. Hadith is said to be written well over 250 - 300 years AFTER the Prophet's passing. Hadith is nothing more than heresay which has no proof to back it up. Hadith is not a reliable source of information on Islaam or the Prophet.

The Quran, the sole source of Islaam as we have it, which was written during the life of the Prophet, has no such slander about a child bride and marriage. The Prophet was known by the title The Trustworthy by even his enemies because of his responsible and nature of being trusted.

Btw, a thread addressing this subject has already been written a few weeks ago.

Who says that Hadith aint a reliable source ?

The recording of the hadeeth of the Prophet (pbuh) began during the time of the Prophet himself.



Al-Baghdaadi records a number of hadeeth that show that the Prophet explicitly allowed the recording of his hadeeth. Here are some examples:


1. Al-Daarimi and Abu Dawood in their Sunans (books) recorded that Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-As stated that they used to record everything they heard from the Prophet. They were warned against doing so as, it was argued, the Prophet was a human being who may be angry at times and pleased at others. Abdullah stopped writing his hadeeth until they could ask the Prophet about this issue. The Messenger of God told him:


“Write [my hadeeth], by the One in whose hand is my soul, nothing comes out [the Prophet’s mouth] except the truth.”


That is, whether he was angry or pleased what he spoke was always the truth.


2. Al-Bukhari, in his Sahih (book), recorded that Abu Hurairah said, “One can find none of the Companions of the Messenger of God relating more hadeeth than I, except Abdullah ibn Amr because he used to record the hadeeth while I did not do so.”


3. Al-Bukhari recorded that a person from Yemen came to the Prophet on the day of the Conquest of Mecca and asked him if he could get the Prophet’s speech recorded, and the Prophet approved and told someone:


“Write it for the father of so and so.”


4. Anas narrated the statement, “Secure knowledge by writing it.” This hadeeth has been related by a number of authorities but mostly with weak chains. There is a dispute concerning whether or not it is actually a statement of the Prophet or of some Companion. However, according to al-Albani, the hadeeth, as recorded by al-Haakim and others, is authentic.

--->There is no question, therefore, that the recording of hadeeth began during the lifetime of the Messenger of God himself. This practice of writing hadeeth continued after the death of the Messenger of God. Al-Azami, in his work Studies in Early Hadeeth Literature, has listed and discussed some fifty Companions of the Prophet who had recorded hadeeth. Note the following:


Abdullah B. Abbas (3 B.H.-68 A.H.)… He was so eager for knowledge that he would ask as many as 30 Companions about a single incident… It seems he wrote what he heard and sometimes even employed his slaves for this purpose… The following derived hadeeth from him in written form: Ali b. Abdullah ibn Abbas, Amr b. Dinar, Al-Hakam b. Miqsam, Ibn Abu Mulaikah, Ikrimah… Kuraib, Mujahid, Najdah… Said b. Jubair.


Abdullah B. Umar B. al-Khattab (10 B.H.-74 A.H.). He transmitted a large number of ahadeeth, and was so strict in relating them that he did not allow the order of a word to be changed even though it would not have altered the meaning… He had books. One Kitab [book] which belonged to Umar, and was in his possession, was read to him by Nafi several times… The following derived hadeeth from him in written form: Jamil b. Zaid al-Tai… Nafi client of ibn Umar, Said b. Jubair, Abd al-Aziz b. Marwan, Abd al-Malik b. Marwan, Ubaidullah b. Umar, Umar b. Ubaidullah …

Al-Azami also compiled a list, discussing each personality individually, of forty-nine people of “the first century successors” who recorded hadeeth. Al-Azami goes on to list eighty-seven of “the scholars covering the late first and early second centuries” who recorded hadeeth. Then he lists “from the early second century scholars” 251 people who collected and recorded hadeeth. Thus al-Azami has produced a list of 437 scholars who had recorded hadeeth and all of them lived and died before the year 250 A. H. Many of them are from before the time of Umar ibn Abdul Azeez, who has been wrongly credited with having been the first person to ask for the collection of hadeeth. The story of Umar ibn Abdul Azeez has actually been misunderstood and it does not mean that no one collected hadeeth before him.


To quote al-Azami, “Recent research has proved that almost all of the hadeeth of the Prophet was [sic] written down in the life of the companions, which stretched to the end of the first century.” This last statement is partially based on al-Azami’s own research in which he has mentioned many Companions and Followers who possessed written hadeeth. Elsewhere, he himself writes,
I have established in my doctoral thesis Studies in Early Hadeeth Literature that even in the first century of the Hijra many hundreds of booklets of hadeeth were in circulation. If we add another hundred years, it would be difficult to enumerate the quantity of booklets and books which were in circulation. Even by the most conservative estimate they were many thousands.

[3rd3y3]

Did you just use a hadith to justify the use of hadith?

Isn't that like Christians saying' the bible is true because the bible tells me so'?


Why does it say to do wudu one way in the Quran, but says to do it in a different way in hadith?

Why are apostates to be left alone according to the Quran, but hadith says to kill them?

Why does it (the Quran) say to flog adulterers, but hadith says to kill them?

Saudi Arabian government follows hadith, right? Are they true Muslims - why or why not?

[Hellspawn]

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

Did you just use a hadith to justify the use of hadith?

Isn't that like Christians saying' the bible is true because the bible tells me so'?

I already explained this in another thread (Al Khidhr)

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

Why does it say to do wudu one way in the Quran, but says to do it in a different way in hadith?

The wudu as described in the Quran is also valuable, but if you want to follow Muhammad pbuh and get the reward for doin the wudu and following the sunna you make it as described by the companions of the prophet who saw him doin it.

The prophet and his sunna are there to complete the quran, for example the book dont describe the way of doin salaat thus it is obligatory for every muslim, it only says that we have to prosternate but dont explain what we do and what we say but it still the most principal way of worship who determine a muslim from a non muslim.

And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down. 2:44

And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and whatever good you send before for yourselves, you shall find it with Allah; surely Allah sees what you do. 2:111

Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to Allah. 2:239

Surely they who believe and do good deeds and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate they shall have their reward from their Lord, and they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve. 2:278

Then when you have finished the prayer, remember Allah standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer; surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers. 4:104

etc etc etc... (theres alot more...)

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

Why are apostates to be left alone according to the Quran, but hadith says to kill them?

Depends of the time period, in time of war or in time of peace, the apostates from Qureich and the people of the book, those who keep you from practicing your religion and the passive ones. In your homeland, outside your countries. This is not a general statement.

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

Why does it (the Quran) say to flog adulterers, but hadith says to kill them?

The flog is for the not married and the slaughter for the married. as you surely know the Quran came gradually and some penalties changed during his inspiration for example the alcohol was permitted in the beginning then prohibited during (or before) the prayer then totally prohibited, you can't ask people who get drunk all their life time to stop it in one time, the same goes for sex outside the marriage, they used to do it at will and then came the prohibition.

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

Saudi Arabian government follows hadith, right? Are they true Muslims - why or why not?

The government aint the people nor represent it. They follow hadith but their reign aint legitimate for alot of muslims.



I don't understand how you can read the Quran and bring statements from it (so I assume you believe it) then doubt the messenger, the one who brought it to us and faithfully transmit it. The one who have been chosen amongst all man kind to hold the responsability to deliver it. This is non sense for me

[Fatal Guillotine]

ayo hellspawn nice imma print this out later

[prof zooruka]

It does not matter who muhummad married. He is still a false prophet and nothing will ever change that fact.


Praise be to God Always !!!!!!!!!!



peace

[3rd3y3]

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

The wudu as described in the Quran is also valuable,...

So you treat hadith as your primary source and the Quran is secondary, eh?

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

The prophet and his sunna are there to complete the quran,..

“'Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?'” Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt." (Qur'an 6:114 )

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

Depends of the time period,...

Could you show me where it says that in the Quran, please?

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

The flog is for the not married and the slaughter for the married....

Could you back that up with verses from the Quran, please?

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

The government aint the people nor represent it. They follow hadith but their reign aint legitimate for alot of muslims.

How could you say that? They follow the hadith of killing adulterers and apostates. If the people believe and practice hadith and so does the government, the government must represent them.

[Hellspawn]

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

So you treat hadith as your primary source and the Quran is secondary, eh?

Don't make me say what I didn't. Quran is the principle source and the sunna is there to give the details like I already explained for the salaat (prayer).

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

“'Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?'” Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt." (Qur'an 6:114 )

This surat is dedicated to those who don't believe in God. Regarding the prophet he is indeed a teacher.

Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise. (Quran 2:130)

Even as We have sent among you an Apostle from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know. (Quran 2:152)

Certainly Allah conferred a benefit upon the believers when He raised among them an Apostle from among themselves, reciting to them His communications and purifying them, and teaching them the Book and the wisdom, although before that they were surely in manifest error. (Quran 3:165)

And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Apostle had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful. (Quran 3:65)

Whoever obeys the Apostle, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them. (Quran 4:81)

What is the wisdom according to you ?

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

Could you show me where it says that in the Quran, please?

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Quran 9:5)

This verse start with "when the sacred months have passed away", so obviously it is not a general statement like after each sacred month go kill the idolaters. This is limited to the period of time of that year in particular, the year when the muslims went to the Hajj for the first time with the prophet and when the idolaters of Qureish broke the treaty of peace.

You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.
You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers. (Quran 2:190-191)


(note that you claimed that the Quran don't say to kill them while it does, but in a precise circumstace)

This is also a limitation ; if they attack you kill them and again around the sacred mosque so it is again about the idolaters of Qureish and in the case of agression in the lifetime of the prophet.

On the other hand.

Whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men. (Quran 5:33)

It is said here a soul, there's nothing more general than that. Whether it is a believer or a disbeliever. And this is a general statement.

Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Bible and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement. (Quran 5:111)

It is applyed to the muslims, the christians and the jews who follows the way of God.

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. (Quran 2:63)

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

Could you back that up with verses from the Quran, please?

Like I previously said the Quran gives the main principles and the Sunna gives the details. In this case the prophet have said that the flog is for the not married and the stonedeath for the married. I can give you Hadeeths but you don't seem to take them as valuables (anyway : The Prophet said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but God and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.").

EDIT : anyway these punishments are more persuasive than practical and examples of people who have been stoned in the time of the prophet are very rare (I only know two of them). It happends only when the guilty person comes and denounces himself and insists to be punished because it is hard to have the four witnesses and because people were so religious and overwhelmed by the faith that they don't dare break the rules.

the two I know :
1-Sulaiman b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma,iz b. Malik came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said to him : Messenger of Allah, purify me, whereupon he said: Woe be upon you, go back, ask forgiveness of Allah and turn to Him in repentance. He (the narrator) said that he went back not far, then came and said: Allah's Messenger, purify me. whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said : Woe be upon you, go back and ask forgiveness of Allah and turn to Him in repentance. He (the narrator) said that he went back not far, when he came and said: Allah's Messenger, purify me. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said as he had said before. When it was the fourth time, Allah's Messenger (may, peace be upon him) said : From what am I to purify you ? He said : From adultery, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) asked if he had been mad. He was informed that he was not mad. He said: Has he drunk wine ? A person stood up and smelt his breath but noticed no smell of wine. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Have you committed adultery ? He said : Yes. He made pronouncement about him and he was stoned to death.

2- There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said : Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said : Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away ? I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said : Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said : Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said : Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment.

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

How could you say that? They follow the hadith of killing adulterers and apostates. If the people believe and practice hadith and so does the government, the government must represent them.

1-the government of Saudi Arabia is a complicated case, they sold themselves to GB and abolish the islamic Khalifat in the beginning of last century. They lost all legitimacy.

2-Saudi Arabia government practices the islamic punishment in public for the show. Alot of people evade it by payin money or so. The government of Saudi Arabia isnt the perfect example of a muslim country like most people in occident think.

3-The people have not the right to practices the punishment, only the ruler can. So today nobody can in the absence of a legitimate islamic ruler (a one who reigns over all muslims).

[3rd3y3]

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

This surat is dedicated to those who don't believe in God. Regarding the prophet he is indeed a teacher.).

^^Missed the point. You've said hadith is made to 'complete' Quran, and I posted a quote that says the Quran is a 'book that's fully detailed'. If it is fully detailed, it does not need an additional book to complete it!!!!

The statement you've written above has nothing to do with that subject.

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Quran 9:5)

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

This verse start with "when the sacred months have passed away", so obviously it is not a general statement like after each sacred month go kill the idolaters. This is limited to the period of time of that year in particular, the year when the muslims went to the Hajj for the first time with the prophet and when the idolaters of Qureish broke the treaty of peace.

That quote has nothing to do with apostates. Again you post verses unrelated to the topic being discussed.

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

Like I previously said the Quran gives the main principles and the Sunna gives the details. In this case the prophet have said that the flog is for the not married and the stonedeath for the married..

So you believe the Quran is not a fully detailed book?

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

The government of Saudi Arabia isnt the perfect example of a muslim country like most people in occident think...

Why not? - they practce hadith.

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

3-The people have not the right to practices the punishment, only the ruler can. So today nobody can in the absence of a legitimate islamic ruler (a one who reigns over all muslims).

Why are they not legitimate? Don't they uphold hadith and enforce it? So explain how they are not legitimate!

Are they not true muslims?

[Hellspawn]

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

^^Missed the point. You've said hadith is made to 'complete' Quran, and I posted a quote that says the Quran is a 'book that's fully detailed'. If it is fully detailed, it does not need an additional book to complete it!!!!

The statement you've written above has nothing to do with that subject.

It does need and I already told you why (details of the salaat, of the hajj, the amount of the zakaat, etc...). On the other hand, not all the details of every day life have been written in the Quran

But the most funny part is that you are already considering and following the Sunna of the prophet without knowing it because the translation of the Quran that you are reading have been translated according to the hadeeths of the prophet and his explanations. A simple example :

Surat 113 "Al Falaq"

Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak. (the world Falaq in arabic means "break" or "explosion" or "appearance from nothingness", it has been explained by Muhammad pbuh that it means "daybreak" or "the dawn". Otherwise it would have no sense for the normal human beign who read it)
"From the evils among His creations.
"From the evils of darkness as it falls. (also "darkness as it falls" in arabic was "Ghasiq idha waqab" and nothing to do with "darkness" wich is "Dhalam" or "Leil (night)" and Waqab is a word that did not existed before the Quran. A hadeeth of the prophet also explained that Ghasiq is the "Moon" and "Waqab" means appear. So the meaning here is the time of the "sunset" in opposition to the "sunrise" of the first verse)
"From the evils of the troublemakers. (troublemakers is a translation of "naffathet fil ouqad" wich are "the blowers in the knots" wich are according to the prophets "the witches")
"From the evils of the envious when they envy."


Examples are several.

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

That quote has nothing to do with apostates. Again you post verses unrelated to the topic being discussed.

Show me where it says in the Quran that the apostates must be left alone.

Let me explain that apostasy thing ; apostasy is "a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc." dictionnary.com.

So it is the same as high treason nowerdays and untill very lately it was punished by death penalty by most occidental countries. People used to pretend entering Islam to spy on the muslims and then turn their back to them and make plans to fight them. Where's the difference ?

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

So you believe the Quran is not a fully detailed book?

Already answered, ones must be very arrogant to pretend to fully understand it without explanations. And what you reading is not the quran, it's the translation of the Quran according to the Prophet Muhammad.

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

Why not? - they practce hadith.

Why are they not legitimate? Don't they uphold hadith and enforce it? So explain how they are not legitimate!

The Saudi princes are corrupted they have signed the treaty with GB in 1927 and sold the Khilafat to the English ; listen at 48:00 (http://www.pureislam.co.za/index.php...=936&Itemid=46)

Originally Posted by 3rd3y3

Are they not true muslims?

(We speak about the rulers right now) they betrayed Islam and usurped the sovereignty. It's not up to me to say if they are muslims or not this is up to their Creator.

[3rd3y3]

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

It does need and I already told you why (details of the salaat, of the hajj, the amount of the zakaat, etc...). On the other hand, not all the details of every day life have been written in the Quran

All the details you need are in Quran.

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

But the most funny part is that you are already considering and following the Sunna of the prophet without knowing it because the translation of the Quran that you are reading have been translated according to the hadeeths of the prophet and his explanations. A simple example...

Can you prove definitively when certain words in the Quran were invented?

Can you give me the exact date and location of when it happened (month/day/year)?

Do you know for a fact (and can you prove it) that certain words used in the Quran were not used by Arabs preceding the revelation?

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

Show me where it says in the Quran that the apostates must be left alone.

002.256: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.


015.002
Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to Allah's will) in Islam.

15.003 Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them).

018.029Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!

109.001 - 006
Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.





Now tell me, do you believe in the above verses or do you believe that they should still be killed?

Which book do you believe in?

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

Let me explain that apostasy thing ; apostasy is "a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc." dictionnary.com.

^^game of semantics. I'm using what the Quran says.

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

So it is the same as high treason nowerdays and untill very lately it was punished by death penalty by most occidental countries. People used to pretend entering Islam to spy on the muslims and then turn their back to them and make plans to fight them. Where's the difference ?

The difference is that most apostates do not spy on muslims and then turn their backs and make plans to fight them. If they did that, they would be doing more than commiting apostasy. They would be participating in a war and the punishment for that would be based on the fact people were killed as a result, NOT because they are apostates.

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

Already answered, ones must be very arrogant to pretend to fully understand it without explanations. And what you reading is not the quran, it's the translation of the Quran according to the Prophet Muhammad.

Actually, since the Quran is a fully detailed book, the explanations are in it not outside of it. Any answer to any question regarding Islaam could be found IN THE QURAN.

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

The Saudi princes are corrupted they have signed the treaty with GB in 1927 and sold the Khilafat to the English ; listen at 48:00 (http://www.pureislam.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=936&Item id=46)

What makes that so corrupt? What are the results of that?

Originally Posted by Hellspawn

(We speak about the rulers right now) they betrayed Islam and usurped the sovereignty. It's not up to me to say if they are muslims or not this is up to their Creator.

By betraying Islaam, does that make them enemies, and 'rejecters' and should they be stoned to death? Did they commit treason?