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Old 04-16-2009, 12:55 PM   #16
ALLAHNDRZUWUNIGA
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This thread presents me with an opportunity to put forth a question I have had for a long time, and SunnyWinters gets at the point when he clarifies that the "We" is ALLAH.


If this is the case that Allah is manifest in beings, characters in the Koran, on earth, than who are the prophits reletive to these said, "one of Our slaves, unto whom We had given mercy from Us". And why are the prophets given such importance in the Koran, when in numerous instances, such as the incedent with Lot's daughter, they are confronted with beings of a higher rank then prophethood. If the "We" is Allah, than why is he descrubed earlyer as only "one who has been given mercy" by the plurailty of persons who are imparting the naration of the chapter.

I am curious how one can explain this without defining the Slave of Allah as an Elojim. Calling him simply a wise man is to overlook the hirarchy that is established in the Koran.

And further do you think that these are the Saints/ gods (words interchanged in varous translations) talked about in the bible, also known as suns of God in the Dead Sea Scrolls? Who do these represent in today's world? Where/ who are they?

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Old 04-16-2009, 01:06 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by ALLAHNDRZUWUNIGA View Post
This thread presents me with an opportunity to put forth a question I have had for a long time, and SunnyWinters gets at the point when he clarifies that the "We" is ALLAH.


If this is the case that Allah is manifest in beings, characters in the Koran, on earth, than who are the prophits reletive to these said, "one of Our slaves, unto whom We had given mercy from Us". And why are the prophets given such importance in the Koran, when in numerous instances, such as the incedent with Lot's daughter, they are confronted with beings of a higher rank then prophethood. If the "We" is Allah, than why is speaking in first person when he is only one who has been given mercy by the plurailty of persons who are imparting the naration of the chapter.

I am curious how one can explain this without defining the Slave of Allah as an Elojim.

And further, who do these Elojim represent in today's world? Where/ who are they?
finally - a good build


some so called traditional muslims would say that the we or us in the quaran is just a way to give power in expressing Allah -


Quote:
And why are the prophets given such importance in the Koran, when in numerous instances, such as the incedent with Lot's daughter, they are confronted with beings of a higher rank then prophethood.
because there are ranks in the heavens

the we/us in the quaran (the way i see it) are those closes to Allah and therefore are Allah - ALLAH is the Supreme - there is only one head - but the body of Allah is also Allah - and the body is the people - those who strive to be upright and who qualify themselves to wear the title "Praiseworthy/Muhammad"


reword your question though
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Old 04-16-2009, 01:50 PM   #18
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Do you think that The Nation of Gods and Earths or the Nation of Islam represents this body of Allah in todays world? If so how are traditonal Muslims any different...Why would a Muslem strive to emulate Mohamed or Moses, a prophet, and earn the title of praiseworthy, while Moses and Mohamed are involved in a relationship with physical parties that speak of Allah when they say "We"?

To me what this sugests is the fact that mankind is being developed and built. Parties of gods were/ are charged with tending to mankind and teaching him, while they cary out the work of Allah, and are in some ways participents in the reality of Allah.
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Old 04-16-2009, 02:05 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by ALLAHNDRZUWUNIGA View Post
Do you think that The Nation of Gods and Earths or the Nation of Islam represents this body of Allah in todays world?

those who strive to be upright and who qualify themselves to wear the title "Praiseworthy/Muhammad"

if you are in the nation of gods and earths and you are found doing the above mentioned, then yes




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Originally Posted by ALLAHNDRZUWUNIGA View Post
If so how are traditonal Muslims any different...
some are - some aren't - and this isn't limited to Islam


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Originally Posted by ALLAHNDRZUWUNIGA View Post
Why would a Muslem strive to emulate Mohamed or Moses, a prophet, and earn the title of praiseworthy, while Moses and Mohamed are involved in a relationship with physical parties that speak of Allah when they say "We"?
i don't understand your question


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Originally Posted by ALLAHNDRZUWUNIGA View Post
To me what this sugests is the fact that mankind is being developed and built. Parties of gods were/ are charged with tending to mankind and teaching him, while they cary out the work of Allah, and are in some ways participents in the reality of Allah.


  1. Psalm 82:6
    "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
    Psalm 82:5-7 (in Context) Psalm 82 (Whole Chapter)
  2. Psalm 95:3
    For the LORD is the great God, the great King above all gods.
    Psalm 95:2-4 (in Context) Psalm 95 (Whole Chapter)
  3. Psalm 96:4
    For great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods.
    Psalm 96:3-5 (in Context) Psalm 96 (Whole Chapter)
  4. Psalm 96:5
    For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the LORD made the heavens.
    Psalm 96:4-6 (in Context) Psalm 96 (Whole Chapter)
  5. Psalm 97:7
    All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idolsó worship him, all you gods!
    Psalm 97:6-8 (in Context) Psalm 97 (Whole Chapter)
  6. Psalm 97
    For you, O LORD, are the Most High over all the earth; you are exalted far above all gods.
    Psalm 97:8-10 (in Context) Psalm 97 (Whole Chapter)
  7. Psalm 135:5
    I know that the LORD is great, that our Lord is greater than all gods.
    Psalm 135:4-6 (in Context) Psalm 135 (Whole Chapter)
  8. Psalm 138:1
    [ Of David. ] I will praise you, O LORD, with all my heart; before the "gods" I will sing your praise.
    Psalm 138:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 138 (Whole Chapter)






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Old 04-16-2009, 02:50 PM   #20
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Old 04-16-2009, 05:20 PM   #21
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ALLAH is the Supreme - there is only one head - but the body of Allah is also Allah - and the body is the people - those who strive to be upright and who qualify themselves to wear the title "Praiseworthy/Muhammad"

Who or what do you consider to be "the head"?
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Old 04-16-2009, 06:05 PM   #22
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Who or what do you consider to be "the head"?

the ONE qualified for that position at that time - the one getting the job done and leaving a trail of proof of his existence - what i consider doesn't matter when it comes to these things
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Old 04-17-2009, 10:42 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by ALLAHNDRZUWUNIGA
Why would a Muslem strive to emulate Mohamed or Moses, a prophet, and earn the title of praiseworthy, while Moses and Mohamed are involved in a relationship with physical parties that speak of Allah when they say "We"?

Sunnywinters said:

"i don't understand your question"

My question is why was mankind encouraged to be moslems and submit to God, and than later taught to be gods themselves? Why were the prophets not taught to be gods?

On another note, do you think the weird things the man moses encounters does are in some ways ment to be symbolic?
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Old 04-17-2009, 03:00 PM   #24
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My question is why was mankind encouraged to be moslems and submit to God, and than later taught to be gods themselves? Why were the prophets not taught to be gods?

On another note, do you think the weird things the man moses encounters does are in some ways ment to be symbolic?

how i see it, mankind went astray and needed prophets to guide them back to being god - the prophets are already gods -


the second question isn't clear to me - but i think alot of moses stories are symbolic of someone who was to appear a long time after moses
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Old 04-17-2009, 10:03 PM   #25
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I would agree with you about that, but at the same time there are specific verces in the Koran that state something to the effect of, "they say messiah (jesus) and allah are one when he is only a man". There are are numerous verces in the Koran that clearly posit Jesus as a Man. The same thing is true with Mohamed. One verce i can clearly recolect that states this says how Mohamed is superior to Jesus and all the other propets in that he has been forgiven of his past AND future sins, and in responce Mohamed states, "should i not be a gratefull servent of Allah.

I can see how being the servent of a tracendental being like God can mean compleate unification with God in that one is doing the exact will of God, so one is partaking in God's actions, but I think one has to try a lot harder and advance beyond imagination in order to claim the state of human godhood.

ODB puts it very well. He says on the song on the song on the soundtrack to Rush Hour I, the song where he comes on saying, "Im sitten in the lab, im anylizing thoughts, Im drunk off the quart that I just had bought" He goes on to say...

"NOT SAYING IM THE UTMOST, truely im the UTMOST! Have you ever cought the hip hop holy ghost?" - He may be the utmost (God) but he recognizes that declaring such an atainment would contradict his characteristic, so he goes out of his way to disclaim the title before declareing himself the ultimate being or the utmost.

My theory as to the nature of Godhood as it is exemplified by humans is that one can not state one way or another that Man is God, without incuring tremendous philosophical concequenses. That is why it is said in the old testement, and referenced by Jesus, but was ignored by the priests of Jesus's day that had surely read the old testement. Also, another example of this could be seen in how Jesus describes himself as one with the Father, but is contradicted in the Koran, which denies the fact of the statement as if he had never made it.

I believe that the quality of Godhood among men can be posited as a certain gift at certain times but the changes in the univerce move the existance of God from the subjective observer, MAN, to the passive pasture of NATURE, into the infiniate glory of the UNIVERSE, so the atainment of Divinity is always to be persued and is ever ellusive. Perhaps the I ching demonstates this dynamic. If so It would make sence as according to the I ching, Heaven and Power are ever existant in different relationships to the rest of the world, so the blatent statement, of: I AM GOD, may be compleatly true at one point, but may requrie humble submision of the will in the next moment.

Perhaps the Koran is a practice that exemplifies perfection as something one must always stive to maintain, without ever settling the issue with the insignificant knowlege that One is one with the Supreem Being.
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Old 04-17-2009, 10:13 PM   #26
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I would agree with you about that, but at the same time there are specific verces in the Koran that state something to the effect of, "they say messiah (jesus) and allah are one when he is only a man". There are are numerous verces in the Koran that clearly posit Jesus as a Man. The same thing is true with Mohamed. One verce i can clearly recolect that states this says how Mohamed is superior to Jesus and all the other propets in that he has been forgiven of his past AND future sins, and in responce Mohamed states, "should i not be a gratefull servent of Allah.

besides a woman,what else could jesus be but a man ?


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Originally Posted by ALLAHNDRZUWUNIGA View Post
I can see how being the servent of a tracendental being like God can mean compleate unification with God in that one is doing the exact will of God, so one is partaking in God's actions, but I think one has to try a lot harder and advance beyond imagination in order to claim the state of human godhood.

God is the Group - There is a Supreme being in that group
God is plural




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Originally Posted by ALLAHNDRZUWUNIGA View Post
My theory as to the nature of Godhood as it is exemplified by humans is that one can not state one way or another that Man is God, without incuring tremendous philosophical concequenses. That is why it is said in the old testement, and referenced by Jesus, but was ignored by the priests of Jesus's day that had surely read the old testement. Also, another example of this could be seen in how Jesus describes himself as one with the Father, but is contradicted in the Koran, which denies the fact of the statement as if he had never made it.
in the beginning was the word and the word was god - when god breathed life into the man, he filled his mind with his word and the man began to repeat what was on gods mind


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Originally Posted by ALLAHNDRZUWUNIGA View Post
I believe that the quality of Godhood among men can be posited as a certain gift at certain times but the changes in the univerce move the existance of God from the subjective observer, MAN, to the passive pasture of NATURE, into the infiniate glory of the UNIVERSE, so the atainment of Divinity is always to be persued and is ever ellusive. Perhaps the I ching demonstates this dynamic. If so It would make sence as according to the I ching, Heaven and Power are ever existant in different relationships to the rest of the world, so the blatent statement, of: I AM GOD, may be compleatly true at one point, but may requrie humble submision of the will in the next moment.

people always say to others that god is in them

and jesus is in you

in us how ?

Jesus was like adam - god gave him his words and wisdom and he became god


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Originally Posted by ALLAHNDRZUWUNIGA View Post
Perhaps the Koran is a practice that exemplifies perfection as something one must always stive to maintain, without ever settling the issue with the insignificant knowlege that One is one with the Supreem Being.


the way its worded throws most people off

once you are connected to that pure word, you are god
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Old 04-17-2009, 10:17 PM   #27
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the second question isn't clear to me - but i think alot of moses stories are symbolic of someone who was to appear a long time after moses
What I mean is, dont you think that the 3 examples of the man doing something out of the ordinary have meaning of different levels. Like perhaps they signify questions such as, why does God allow suffering on earth when he could wipe it out, why does god allow evil to exist, why do bad things happen to good people?- and one who is truely activated would understand the meaning of the man's actions and would recognize intivitivly the feelings that hindered Moses from recognizing the purpose of the man.

As a Literature major in collage, i see something of a contradiction in accepting the story as a simply example of a good man (moses) who is unable to understand actions that only make sence in their context (for example the boy being bad or the ship about to be hit by an unjust king). Stories where a charachter's actions are out of place due to his ignorence of the cercumstance are prevelent in sitcoms and man made dramas, so to explain away THE RECETATION, God's Perfect Word, THE KORAN- with such menial interpretation does not due the work it's due justice.

Who do you think the stories are symobolic of?
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Old 04-17-2009, 10:19 PM   #28
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Old 04-17-2009, 10:27 PM   #29
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besides a woman,what else could jesus be but a man ?


Dont make me go get out my Koran and try to find examples. I find it hard to belive that you read the book and never encounterd a clear as day statements that declare Jesus is only a servent to Allah. And by the way I'v read two or three translations.

Perhaps you might say, what they are saying is that Jesus should not be worshiped as Allah, but I think the Koran has numerous attempts to set the record straight and releave Jesus of the Status of Godhood.

By the way, I am in perfect agreement with you that Allah is manifest in man, but I think you should recognize that if the Koran presents this fact at all it is as a parable/ riddle/PARADOX that condems men all the way through who would falsely claim they are God.

Its like Jedi Mind Tricks says, "...the type of shit im on, like does the new testement contradict the Koran" ... he recoginses the inherent contaditions in the two revelations, and is rightfully baffled.

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Old 04-17-2009, 11:30 PM   #30
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What I mean is, dont you think that the 3 examples of the man doing something out of the ordinary have meaning of different levels. Like perhaps they signify questions such as, why does God allow suffering on earth when he could wipe it out, why does god allow evil to exist, why do bad things happen to good people?- and one who is truely activated would understand the meaning of the man's actions and would recognize intivitivly the feelings that hindered Moses from recognizing the purpose of the man.
it is this also

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Originally Posted by ALLAHNDRZUWUNIGA View Post
As a Literature major in collage, i see something of a contradiction in accepting the story as a simply example of a good man (moses) who is unable to understand actions that only make sence in their context (for example the boy being bad or the ship about to be hit by an unjust king). Stories where a charachter's actions are out of place due to his ignorence of the cercumstance are prevelent in sitcoms and man made dramas, so to explain away THE RECETATION, God's Perfect Word, THE KORAN- with such menial interpretation does not due the work it's due justice.
there are ways to look at it - Share what you see - look at others reprint - and move in peace -

some of us can see it from many angles

the popular way will always be repeated by those with limited understanding


example -

just say you believe and your saved


thats popular

85% of the people are not trying to understand

they don't ask questions
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